I was pretty disappointed in California on May 26th for not passing gay marriage rights. I mean, we live in the 21st century, and it’s freakin’ CALIFORNIA, and they don’t pass this law? I had posted my thoughts on my Facebook about this event, and I cannot believe how many responses I got! 48 to be exact – on my Facebook status, crazy! Here goes: MP: I agree with you, who cares. DH: you gonna pay the social security benfits as well? JM: Good point, but at some point there has to be bounderies. Where do you draw the line? If you give rights to some you have to give rights to all forms of sexuality. Because at some point they are going to want rights too. The big thing when I was young was interracial and no one has an issue with it now. Whats next beastiality, incest, pedophilia its disgusting but some people think its ok. What are you going to say when they want their rights? Do you become hypocritical and say no or do you say its ok? Just my POV not meant to offend anyone. MG: I hear you JM... I personally don't think there's anything wrong with being gay (i'm not, but I have a lot of friends that are). It's very different than pedophilia and incest, so I can't count that as anything near the same, but I do get where you’re coming from, although I don’t agree with it. BR: The ignorance spewed above is quite hilarious. AA: DH, last I checked gay people PAY INTO social security just like you and I do. So your statement makes no sense at all. Should they pay the same as we do into the system and NOT receive the benefits that straight people do? And JM, comparing gay marriage to bestiality and incest is beyond ignorant. The discussion is about consenting, loving adult human beings. Love is not a crime. Abusing children and animals against their will IS a crime, just as every reasoning adult knows the difference between conscious consent and rape."People will marry their dogs next" is the dumbest argument against gay marriage I've heard so far out there. As a side note, there are some people out there who think that women should not be allowed to use birth control, and that it is their "duty" to be married and make children because it's what god wants them to do. Personally, as a happily single woman who doesn't want kids, I find that POV far more offensive than gay couples fighting for human rights. JM: Good retort MG thanks for not attacking because of my views...I to have gay friends from when I did theater and agree that the above mentioned are very different but it seems that some people seem to think what I said was ignorant… in response to what they have said about my response...I really hope what I said is ignorant and it doesn’t happen. My point is...Where do you draw the line? At some point those types of people I mentioned are going to come out of the closet as well, then what do you do when they want rights. If you think that is ignorant give it 20 or 30 yrs and then tell me what I have said is ignorant. With each generation there is something different. I welcome the debate if MG doesn’t mind. AA I would like to thank you for putting some thought into your response as for BR... if you are going to attack what someone says put some substance with it. AA: JM, the difference is that it's not ILLEGAL to be gay, it IS illegal to abuse a child, or your daughter, or an animal. Saying that people who are committing crimes to begin with are going to come out of the woodwork and demand "rights" is as ridiculous as saying that rapists and stalkers are going to demand the right to marry their unwilling victims as well. Would society give murderers marriage rights, if they were necropheliacs and wanted to marry their dead girlfriends? I mean, how crazy do you want to imagine this? Do you honestly see a potential for society saying, "okay, rapists can marry their victims, pedophiles can marry 6 year olds..." no, because those things are CRIMES, unlike being a gay couple and living together in a concentual, loving relationship. No one needs to feel threatened by gay couples or that legalizing their unions is suddenly going to change all our morality into something absurd. BR: Clearly AA has it handled. And I'd hardly call what I posted an "attack." JM: BR you are right AA does have it handled and doing a great job. Good comeback AA it is not illegal here but are you aware that homosexuality is still illegal in over 80 countries..why is that..they were countries long before we were. Are they just whacked out people because of their beliefs? I really hope what I said and everything you mentioned in you last response doesn’t happen. There are sick people out there that do these things and just because it is illegal now doesn’t mean it will be in 30 yrs. I just feel there needs to be a line somewhere. They are already looking at passing a law in MA that would allow young kids (13 and up) to send naked pictures on cell phones to their Bf or Gf in a committed relationship. I heard it on the news about 2 weeks ago. MA is the first state to pass gay marriage. Not to say the two are connected but it is a decline in morality unless you think that’s ok too. I think same sex marriage will lead to declines that we can’t recover from. W8&C. AA: Most of the countries where homosexuality is illegal violate basic human rights across the board, most especially towards women, and are state-mandated theocracies or totalitarian governments. I don't think we can say that because it's still illegal to be homosexual in Saudi Arabia or Sudan or Vietnam, (or that it used to be illegal in Tx and Alabama) means we should live according to those fear based values. For instance many people still think that being gay and being a pedophile is the same thing when they are in no way related, or that gay people "created" AIDS. It's all based on ignorance. If you really think the world will descend into chaos and absurdity in 30 years, consider the fact that modern man has been around for over 100,000 years, and the most basic laws of our morality have never changed. Murder is still wrong, stealing is still bad, child abuse has never become acceptable. I don't see how 13 year olds doing what they do already is gonna change the world. JM: AA what do you base your moral beliefs on? AA: Reality. JM: Have you seen a decline in "modern man"? GG: Why do you feel threatened, JM? Are you actually worried that the gays are gonna ruin your hetero marriages? Well, don't worry, JM boy, heteros are doin just a FINE job of fucking-up the morality of marriage all on their own. Do you know the rates, and I'm talking percentages, of child abuse, rape, adultery, divorce are ALL HIGHER in HETEROsexual marriages? So don't bring morality into this, because you'll lose. We live in a country where Brittney Spears can get trashed and married in for 50 minutes all in one night. You sound just like the same kinda fuckin bigots that opposed womens' suffrage--"oh but buta voter is supposed to be a MAN, what's next? Dogs casting votes!?!" Or the same kinda fuckin bigots who opposed interracial marriages--"oh, but but marriage is defined as between a white and a white! What's next? People marrying dogs??!!" Or the same kinda fuckin bigots who oppose blacks gaining personhood. Should I go on? **CONTINUED------> GG: JM, grow up, PROGRESS, or move to one of those 80 countries that you mentioned--I've heard condemning human rights and intolerance go hand-in-hand. They'd love you!! BR, AA, you rock. MG: JM, I can see where you're coming from, because my dad thinks/feels the exact same way, BUT I don't agree with that way of thinking, personally. I agree 100% with AA. Great debate guys! Let's keep it friendly tho, or take it off my page (GG) ;) JM: Wow GG can you not get a point across without using profanity we are having an adult conversation not high school. Oh but I guess the profanity is PROGRESS JM: Thanks MG for letting us have a debate here.. I agree with AA on some things also just not all. BR: JM - you mention that in MA they're trying to pass a law that would make it legal for 13 y.o.s to send a naked picture via text . The reason for that is because in several states, sending a naked picture of someone under 18 years of age is illegal, and someone who does so is trading in child pornography, and if they're are convicted for that, they must register as a sex offender. That would mean a 13 y.o. girl who sends a nude picture of herself to her 14 y.o. boyfriend could be convicted of child pornography and would have to register as a sex offender. Her 14 y.o. boyfriend would have to do so as well, if convicted. And let's not pretnend 13 and 14 y.os aren't doing these things. So that would mean that young kids, due to hormones and sexual feelings they haven't fully explored or understood, would be tainted for the rest of their lives as sex offenders. Making it legal for a 13 y.o. to send a naked text of herself DOES NOT equal a decline in morality. BR: It's simply recognizing that 13/14 y.os will act, as they have since the beginning of time (let's not pretend here) the way they will act, and now they have new technology to make things easier to act in such a way . . . .the point is, you have to change with the times. You might not like it, but society is progressing in a certain way, and being a bigot will not help us all regress back into the 50s when it was better to be gay and marry a straight person, denying everything that you are, and destroying several lives in the process. Get with it man: society is progressing, whether you like it or not. And you will lose, believe it. AA: No, I do not see a decline in modern man. Just take the US as one country for example. You go back 50 years and interracial couples are thrown in jail, while women can't even get a credit card in their own name - only in their husbands. You go back 150 years and people thought that child labor and slavery were just doing good business. They also thought that not bathing kept the bad spirits away/prevented disease, and fought AGAINST mandatory education for children (reading! oh the torture!) 300 years ago we committed mass genocide and biological warfare (giving out "smallpox blankets") to millions of native Americans. Over the course of human-kind we have evolved to be more tolerant, more rational, less superstitious, more scientific, more intelligent, integrated, aware, democratic and thoughtful. We have made unbelievable advances in medicine, agriculture, technology and communication. We survived nuclear weapons. Gay marriage is not going to end the world. AA: BR, you said exactly what I wanted to say earlier but have now been spared the extra typing, thank-you! :) I'm sure that if we're all honest we can all remember being 13 and the wonders of puberty. Whether people like it or not, our bodies become physically mature and capable of reproduction at that age, and teens exploring their sexuality are only following natures signals. I don't see anything wrong with whatever they choose to share in a private relationship with someone of their age, it's none of our biz to begin with. GG, while I don't agree with the tone, I understand that this is an very emotional and personal topic for a lot of people and it's both frustrating and insulting to have a loving, long-term homosexual relationship be in any way compared to someone "marrying their dog." And yes the "What's next, dogs!?" argument HAS been used in every step along the social progress ladder. (A woman being CEO? HAHAHA! What's next, lets have a DOG run the company! HAHAHA!) Sigh. JM: 4 against 1 gotta love those odds LOL! I feel like a whipped puppy. Why is it some of you seem to think just because I dont agree with gay marriage that makes me a biggot..I just see things differently thats all. I give up..you all win..Great debate AA and BR when you jumped in, however GG you gave me a good laugh and a headache from laughing so hard. Thanks MG for sticking up for me on that but I am a big boy..besides I dont have a HEART and it doesn’t effect me, remember I was the TinMan and I pretty much live my life that way. Goodnight MG: My thing is- everyone has their own opinion, everyone has a right to be heard... You all obviously know mine, otherwise I wouldn't have posted my status update... It's a debate.. It's to hear all sides of the story.. GG: JM, removing "fuckin" and replacing it with "fudgin" in no way alters any of my premises. So, once again you are wrong. Something to laugh about, again? "Fuckin" represents passion, earnest, and a very specific desire to emphasize a point beyond more tame wordage. Get it, dude? An adult conversation means the ability to hold-off on polarizing someone's prose and actually being able to critically think about why they used certain words. An adult conversation means understanding the point someone is making without stopping at 'GULP!' profanity and throwing your arms up in protest. I doubt though, JM, you did this--I just think you had no better retort to my arguments than to pick on my use of the word "fuck". Still laughing? 'Cause that's a pretty sorry rebuttal. Some people forget or are too meager or are too non-confrontational to call people out on what they are. JM is a bigot. JM is a bigot. And we ALL should have ZERO appreciation for these people. GG: Oh and JM, ta help ya out--http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot. And to quote BR, "you WILL lose". AA: Let me say that if JM were a person, who as the dictionary defines the word was "utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion" he would not open himself up to this discussion. IMHO I believe that JM is, like very many people, simply afraid that the speed at which social change is happening will lead to a completely immoral and lawless society ... an irrational fear, but a very human one. And anyone who thinks that this is about "winning" or "loosing" is missing the point. It's not a war. It's about forming understanding, tolerance and compassion between groups of people who are different. GG: I think what BR is saying is that JM "will lose" in his effort to stop progress. It's not the whole point, but a point of many, nonetheless. And definitely NOT about war. Whoa there. JM IS like many people, but that still is no excuse. Many people throughout time have always supported injustices and in-tolerances. And the human-ness can never be removed from the equation. A very human thing to do in our sordid country's past has been to discriminate, to lynch, to fight, to spit on, to segregate, to deny basic rights. JM is human -- check JM is like a lot of people -- check JM is a bigo...well, we know where I'm goin' with that. JM: I personally believe in God and base my morals and values in what the Bible says and it plainly states for a man not to lie with another man. Now in no way does that mean I am perfect and never claim to be. I give respect to people who give me respect. As far as I am concerned GG if you want to go out and let some guy stick his penis up your butt if your gay I really dont care. As for your wording I am 44 and dont have to use "fuck" to get a point across, I pretty much had 4 on me with just the few words I spoke without vulgarity. As for AA to say we have survived Nuclear weapons when they still exist on this planet is very profound. BR if you want to let your 13 yr old daughter send naked pictures to her BF then so be it, but when that human nature in the boy comes out to show it to his friends and then leak it to the internet for pervs to see..I guess that wont ruin her life will it. Continued JM: This country is a democracy and it sounds like people in CA agree with my POV. It sounds like when the vote is not your way you call people bigots..I add who is really the bigot and wanting to control how things are. JM: Setting boundaries does not make one a bigot. I suppose when you all have kids you will just let them do what they want right. AA: JM, if you believe in the words of the bible, you can not pick and choose which words are right and which are wrong. Leviticus, which is what you are quoting, also clearly states that after a woman gives birth to a girl she is "unclean" for 66 days and then must make an offering of a dove or a lamb to the lord so that she may then "be clean." That one must abstain from eating shellfish because they are unclean. That women who wear mens clothes (pants) are an abomination. That you must not wear clothes made from more than one type of fabric. That animal sacrifices to the lord are required. That a person with an infectious disease must wear torn clothes, cover their face, and cry out "unclean, unclean." I could go on for a while with all the absurdity that is written about in Leviticus, which is completely out of our time, but what I find most telling is that modern conservative Christians ignore %99.9999 of the bible, but won't stop quoting the one rule about gay sex. Hypocritical? AA: Using the bible as an argument for morality in 2009 is a loosing proposition because we no longer have to base our entire culture on the fear of disease, superstition and a belief in a ruthless, cruel God. You could say that child abuse is okay because the bible says "spare the rod and spoil the child" ... do you beat your children with rods? Do you "shun" women who are having their monthly because they are "unclean"? What was considered appropriate over 2000 years ago is no longer valid...in fact it doesn't even make sense. AA: And JM, there is a difference between letting kids do anything they want, and denying them the right to love and live a life with whoever they choose. If you had a gay daughter who wanted to marry her girlfriend for life, would you tell her that she doesn't deserve the same rights that other people do? JM: First off AA I do not come under the old testament law that is why Jesus died for our sins..and yes I used to spank my kids with a belt on their butt..my Daughter 23 went to WSU and my son is 16 and they are pretty good kids. I have been a single dad since my son was 3. My ex thought she wanted to be bisexual and she used to go to gay bars. Then she got hooked on drugs and met a biker dude because she wanted some excitement in her life. She was out of her kids lives for 5 yrs. forcing me out of the Army to take care of my kids since she left them with her 72 yr old Gma and I didnt want them to go into foster care. I have been on both sides of the fence here and had a pretty seedy life in my earlier yrs drinking and partying and not really as Gavin would say give a Fuck and doing things I am not proud of. All this and I treated my wife like a queen. You call God ruthless and cruel well why would he want to do something for someone who doesn’t want to believe in him or serve him. Next JM: Christians are not perfect just forgiven. I try to follow the Bible the best I can and do the right things, it is a guide for life. Now dont get me wrong I dont follow those religious kool-aid drinkers nor do I follow the overly liberal kool-aid drinkers. Brandi mentioned that kids are going to do natural things, what is natural about 2 people of the same sex together the can not reproduce naturally and if you beleive in evolution..I dont see any gay apes around. As for the Bible people tell me it was written by men well so were all of the books on evolution and atheism. I guess it just really comes down to a choice and how you want to live your life. I have made my choice after living on the other side. I think gay people are very confused people because of what society has taught them. I dont hate them I just dont agree with their values. People need bounderies without it you have chaos and people thinking they can just do what they want. AA: Show me the quote where JESUS said anything against homosexuals. Jesus preached love, peace and tolerance. Jesus accepted the prostitutes, the homeless, the sick and the criminals. Now I never said that God was ruthless or cruel - thats absurd - I said that the people who wrote the old testament law BELIEVED that God was ruthless and cruel. If you don't believe in the old testament why would you believe in the one line in the old testament about men laying with men being wrong? If you would rather follow what Jesus preached, why not accept all people as your brothers for none are perfect and he who is free from sin should cast the first stone. As for gay apes, the same percentage of homosexual behavior exists in all species of animals, from fruit flies to dogs and monkeys - it has been scientifically researched, and some of the most compelling evidence for why being gay is not a choice, but a genetic or biochemical factor. AA: Here is an article for you about a gene that causes homosexuality in fruit flies. http://www.sensualism.com/gay/gene.html I'm sure that you will agree people do not choose their genetics. If someone is born gay, whether that is "natural" to you or not, that is how they were born - you might say it is not "natural" for someone to be born with down syndrome or six toes, but people are born with things like that all the time. Would you support laws that denied people with six toes human rights? That makes no sense. JM: If God had intended gay to be natural why would he say not to do it in Romans 1:26-27.. men likewise gave up NATURAL relations with women and were consumed with passion for another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty of their error. Actually the whole first chapter of Romans is good. Chapter 2 goes on to talk about judging people. If you own a Bible I recommend you read it. Besides if God had meant for man to be with man he would have created Adam and Steve or Amanda and Eve..that does not mean God does not love gay people just the sin they commit. If you truly trust in God I honestly believe you will not be gay. As for the site you posted why should I believe that because some scientist says so. What do they really know and how do you know its true. I critique everything I have even critiqued the Bible. ok I have to go to my sons concert now and I wont be on for a while. My son is way more important then this. AA: God didn't WRITE the bible, therefore he didn't actually "say" anything in Romans. Adam and Eve is nothing but a fairytale, impossible according to all we now know. What we can prove, scientifically, is that homosexual behavior does exist in nature, in every species who's sexuality we have observed, that genetics determine our sexual preferences and that no amount of "therapy" or "religious belief" will change what you are attracted too. There are many priests who are gay and celibate, who are devoutly faithful and who never have sex because they think it is wrong, but that does not change the fact that if they were to allow themselves, their preference would still be for a male partner. Those priests trust in God completely, but it does not alter what is coded in their DNA. And the bible is a book of Jewish moral fables, superstitions, and accounts of the life of Jesus written some 400 years after he had died. Not a how-to manual for living in the here and now. GG: JM, JM. I wasn't sure if you were gonna bring-out the whole religious argument, but here it is, in all its absurd, nonsensical glory. AA is so thoroughly whipping you in ALL matters of logic, reasoning, AND understanding of the bible that little else must be said. Except: You said, "what is natural about 2 people of the same sex together the [sic] can not reproduce naturally and if you believe in evolution..I don't see any gay apes around." Johnny boy, would you deny marriage rights then to a hetero couple where one or both persons is sterile? And did you know that homosexual behavior has been observed in close to 1500 species, ranging from primates to gut worms, and is well documented for 500 of them? This is the best--you said, " why should I believe that because some scientist says so. What do they really know and how do you know its true." LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL. It's called the scientific method. GG: This is where I have to give up. JM, you win. AA and BR, it's no use. JM has demonstrated such a sever lack in basic understandings of human thought and reasoning that no matter what we argue, he will not be phased. His beliefs are so rock solid that barring another life altering series of events like the ones earlier in his life that led him to cling to God for a crutch, his mind will never change. This is why people like him are so scary--even in the face of brilliantly laid out arguments (AA), their minds will hold fast, like 5 yr old hands to a monkey bar, to outdated, outmoded, DANGEROUS ways of thinking, of acting. JM represents a very frightening aspect of conservative America, responsible for war, for racism and classism. It's been fun and I learn from ALL opinions. Werd. --GG. GG: This is good: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104649877 GG: And for the record, JM, I'm as straight as they cum. GG: Oh dude, JM, you've gotta watch this. This video was MADE for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPcBI4CJc8 JM: Ah! finally GG something we can agree on..You are not going to change my mind and I am certainly not going to change yours or anyone else for that matter. I also agree its been fun and interesting and learned some interesting things about liberals I never knew and I used to be one. However you did give me good incite for my next debate with someone else. In the future GG just because someone does not see things the same way as you does not make them a bigot. I am far from it, I just love people and dont want to see them mess up their lives or those of the children of the future. I feel that being gay is not natural, since a man has a penis and a woman has a vagina. Whats the purpose of life if you are going to be with someone you cant reproduce with and create you own offspring. If thats the case then why arent we like worms and just unisex. I wish you GG, AA and BR and of course MG the best and will keep you all in my prayers even though you dont believe in it. JM: Thanks MG for letting us debate here you are still a sweetheart and the best crow ever in Wizard, loved the beak..I do miss those days sometimes. Hope all goes well with you in Cali..as I am sure it will you are a very talented young lady. Hope you dont forget the old Tinman here I might be a little rusty but I still got kick. Take care and many blessings to you. JM aka Tinman aka Iceman LOL no heart and cold as ice Special thanks to: AA, BR, GG and JM for debating on my page. I really hope this helps to educate people, people are afraid of the unknown... research, read, understand... we live in the 21st Century!